Society for Historical Archaeology, Quebec City Award for students
The Quebec City Award is granted to assist French-speaking students to attend the annual meeting and to promote their participation in Society activities. The cash prize is for the amount of interest accrued annually on the initial endowment, and not to exceed $750 USD.
To be considered for the prize, candidates must be a standing member of the SHA, be registered in a French-language university and preparing a thesis or a dissertation in French and they must present a substantive or theoretical paper at the annual meeting.
A shallow site amongst the Bermuda reefs contains a significant amount of kentledge, presumably a marketable ballast. Not the common blocks found in naval sites, these are longer narrower shapes so we are considering a possible connection to colonial iron furnaces on the East Coast. Conservation of cast iron objects is well described in conservators' resources and is quite simple for a "minimal intervention lab”. We will need to know if pig iron could benefit from different handling than cast iron. Any advice will be welcomed.
I have looked up the differences between them & apart from higher levels of impurities the main difference appears to be that cast iron is soft & malleable while pig iron is extremely hard & brittle.
Looks to me that, aside from more careful handling, there shouldn't be much difference between them. Treat as per cast iron & 'suck it & see' ( US translation "take your chances"/pilot it)
Thanks for your time and thoughtful response. We’ll report anything other than the expected result.
Mark Wood Bermuda
> On Jun 4, 2023, at 2:48 PM, Martin Read <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Mark, > > I have looked up the differences between them & apart from higher levels of impurities the main difference appears to be that cast iron is soft & malleable while pig iron is extremely hard & brittle. > > Looks to me that, aside from more careful handling, there shouldn't be much difference between them. Treat as per cast iron & 'suck it & see'
Society for Historical Archaeology, Quebec City Award for students
The Quebec City Award is granted to assist French-speaking students to attend the annual meeting and to promote their participation in Society activities. The cash prize is for the amount of interest accrued annually on the initial endowment, and not to exceed $750 USD.
To be considered for the prize, candidates must be a standing member of the SHA, be registered in a French-language university and preparing a thesis or a dissertation in French and they must present a substantive or theoretical paper at the annual meeting.
Hi SubArchers, I hope all who are still on the list are well. I wanted to ask if folks out there knew examples of what species of wood have been used to make the headstock or yoke to hold ship's bells.
I ask because we just got a sample identified from the Storm Wreck's headstock, which turned out to be elm. Anyone else know of any examples from shipwrecks that have been identified? I took a quick look at the General Carleton book but it didn't look like they specified what type of wood was used in their case. General
Society for Historical Archaeology, Quebec City Award for students
The Quebec City Award is granted to assist French-speaking students to attend the annual meeting and to promote their participation in Society activities. The cash prize is for the amount of interest accrued annually on the initial endowment, and not to exceed $750 USD.
To be considered for the prize, candidates must be a standing member of the SHA, be registered in a French-language university and preparing a thesis or a dissertation in French and they must present a substantive or theoretical paper at the annual meeting.
Please share the following announcement with any who might be interested. There is still time to apply, though we have been getting applications.
The Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program (LAMP) at the St. Augustine Lighthouse & Maritime Museum will offer a temporary 90-day position for a Seasonal Archaeologist to assist primarily with maritime archaeological fieldwork and other research and public outreach activities this summer. The ideal time frame is July-September but these dates could potentially be more flexible.
Sorry all, but I can't find the original instructions.Anita, please unsubscribe me from this list. Thank you. -------- Original message --------From: Chuck Meide <[log in to unmask]> Date: 4/7/22 12:40 PM (GMT-05:00) To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Temporary maritime archaeology job in St. Augustine, Florida Hi everyone,Please share the following announcement with any who might be interested. There is still time to apply, though we have been getting applications.The Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program (LAMP) at the St. Augustine Lighthouse & Maritime Museum will offer a temporary 90-day position for a Seasonal Archaeologist to assist primarily with maritime archaeological fieldwork and other research and public outreach activities
I'm recording a small Admiralty anchor found off the Washington (State) coast, and it has a stock mounting that I'm not familiar with on Admiralty anchors.
The anchor is relatively small, perhaps a kedge anchor, estimated at 300-500 lbs. Rather than having a key or tab on the shank to hold the wood stock in place, there is a diamond-shaped opening forged into the shank, indicating a wood stock roughly 10 cm square. There does not appear to be any obvious way to anchor the stock into the shank opening; perhaps wood or iron wedges were used.
I have seen a decent number of these types of anchors, with the diamond-shaped opening for a stock. I always thought they were 20th century anchors, post-dating the classic Admiralty anchor, though I guess I'm not 100% sure. The ones I've seen were smaller, probably used as anchors on fishing or trawling boats.
Do you have a photo of the anchor? We, The SHIPS Project are progressing on an Anchor Catalog, we held a course a fews ago and its progressed so we can share what we have on the examples we have context for.
-Mal
Mallory R. Haas Director, 3H Consulting Ltd. Director, The SHIPS Project, Plymouth Email: [log in to unmask] Web: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://shipsproject.org/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!M7M7IG5fDw2CANkyOd1WEtWFpxxxUXLAEqmgYLhlenyEdOGas62hR3k1bGBoHIM$ WhatsApp: +447895023655 UK Mobile: +447895023655 US Mobile: +12162338512
This is not maritime archaeology specific but I wanted to share some information about what could be a very cool dive platform/floating research lab for maritime arch. projects on rivers or near-coastal waters. The developer of the boat -- DiveDock -- is targeting the public safety dive community, but I thought that it might be of interest to someone in this group.
Definitely could prove of use as a nice robust, stable work platform in sheltered waters. Thanks for sharing the information.
Jim Spirek University of South Carolina
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Gary C. Kessler Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 7:41 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Dive/research platform...
Hi all!
This is not maritime archaeology specific but I wanted to share some information about what could be a very cool dive platform/floating research lab for maritime arch. projects on rivers or near-coastal waters. The developer of the boat -- DiveDock -- is targeting the public
I have tried previously to breathe life into Sub-Arch, but no luck so far…
Some of you may be interested in the rescue dig we are carrying out in the earliest Victualling Yard of the Navy in Plymouth (started in 1654). We are working on a quay at the northern end of the Yard, which was probably built c1650-60, and within a warehouse built c1668. The warehouse was leased to the Lambhay Victualling Yard by the town council until a new Yard was built on the other side of town in the 1830s (The Royal William Victualling Yard – 10
Thank you for letting us know! The work sounds really interesting and I look forward to learning more about the project!
Cheers,
Diana Cooper Archaeology Branch Victoria BC
> On Jan 20, 2022, at 7:24 AM, Martin Read <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I have tried previously to breathe life into Sub-Arch, but no luck so far… > > Some of you may be interested in the rescue dig we are carrying out in the earliest Victualling Yard of the Navy in Plymouth (started in 1654). We are working on a quay at the northern end of the Yard,
We have been so lucky with the weather & had another cold but bright day. We were going through material associated with the quay wall today & found another fish vertebrae to add to the possible cod vertebrae & some tiny fish vertebrae from a few days ago. I will try to get these identified.
Does anyone know where I can acquire a copy of Jim Sinclair's “Titanic 2000 Final Field Report,” published by RMS Titanic in 2010? I have the 2000 preliminary report but have had no luck in locating the 2010 final report.
WRI has been asked by the Near-Surface Geophysics and Biogeosciences Sections of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) to organize an Archaeological Science Session for the FALL 2021 Conference, December 13-17 in New Orleans, Louisiana.
The session will be Virtual or In-Person (Hybrid) and Presentations on Advances in the Use of Archaeobiogeochemistry (Field and Laboratory) for the Discovery or Mapping of Archaeological sites (Terrestraial or Marine). Of Specific Interest will be lField Studies conducted since 2010 and built on the presentations of the SHA Conference.
It has been along time since I posted to the list. We are considering purchasing a digital chloride meter to monitor our electrolytic reduction vats and would appreciate input on recommendations for units to purchase and/or positive or negative feedback for such utilization.
Some of you may recall that I tried to get something happening again on Sub-Arch almost a year ago – what a success that was!
Sub-Arch has been practically moribund for some time & no longer includes the, occasionally fascinating, interaction between archaeologists & treasure hunters that it once had. Have they all gone to join the choir invisible?
> On 14 Jun 2021, at 20:53, Martin Read <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Some of you may recall that I tried to get something happening again on Sub-Arch almost a year ago – what a success that was! > > Sub-Arch has been practically moribund for some time & no longer includes the, occasionally fascinating, interaction between archaeologists & treasure hunters that it once had. Have they all gone to join the choir invisible? > > I’ll try a question this time. 2020 (the year we never had) was meant to be a commemoration of the
others I've discussed this with think that a fixed magnetic compass makes no sense & it is doubtful that a navigation compass would stand the weather or risk of theft.
They also lean towards a weather/wind vane, rather than being used to direct gunfire - since the guns would not be in the same place & their bearings would therefore be different. A gunner must establish the range of gun to target, but can always see the target, so a compass bearing isn’t needed.
Corey Malcom, PhD Director of Archaeology Mel Fisher Maritime Heritage Society 200 Greene St. Key West, FL 33040 (305) 304-1136
The Mel Fisher Maritime Heritage Society is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization with the purposes of exploring and preserving maritime cultural resources and providing educational services to the public about past maritime activities.
I thought some of you might be interested in the results of my recent research into ‘The Plymouth Compass’.
This had generally been assumed to be some sort of device to aid aiming of the guns on Plymouth Hoe against enemy shipping during the reign of Queen Elizabeth in the late 16thc.
Hey out there in sub-arch land. Would any of you have a digital copy of the following chapter:
Sixteenth century Spanish basque ships and shipbuilding: the multipurpose nao
This is a BAR publication and the chapter is in the book:
Postmedieval boat and ship archaeology. Papers presented at the third meeting of the International Symposia on Boat and Ship Archaeology in Stockholm in 1982.
I have the full citation for this paper, included below, but am not sure that I have a copy. We are looking around to see if we have a hard or digital copy.
Chuck
Barkham, Michael 1985 Sixteenth Century Spanish Basque Ships and Shipbuilding: the Multipurpose Nao. In Postmedieval Boat and Ship Archaeology: Papers Based on Those Presented to an International Symposium on Boat and Ship Archaeology in Stockholm in 1982, edited by Carl Olof Cederlund, pp. 113-135. Swedish National Maritime Museum, Report No. 20, and BAR International Series No. 256. British Archaeological Reports, Oxford.
Hello Geraldo, I will dig a bit in my files to see what I can come up with. I would direct you to the bell recovered from the Whydah Galley,1715 https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2017/11/02/whydah-found-throwback/ and the slave ship Henrietta Marie, 1700 http://slaveryimages.org/s/slaveryimages/item/2618 I will give a look in my files, However, would be interested in what attributes of the bell make you believe it is older? Thanks Jim
Thanks, James. I have sent some pictures to Gary of the bell( bells in fact). One is from the wreckage no doubt, other is from the museum ( the one I mentioned in my post) "said to be " from the same shipwreck. Best wishes Geraldo
As far as 18th-century bells, we have a bell with its headstock and clapper from the Storm Wreck (1782) and there was another one that was well-reported from the 1785 wreck of the General Carleton (Wroblewska 2008), which probably had sailed in the same fleet as the Storm ship when it wrecked here off St. Augustine. Like Henrietta Marie's bell, that of General Carleton had the ship's name cast upon its surface. Queen Anne's Revenge also had a bell (two actually).
I have just heard this saddening news, and am sharing this statement written by Martijn Manders with the SubArch list:
"It is with great sadness that I have to announce the passing of Thijs Maarleveld, 11th of March 2021. Thijs was 67 years old. Many of you will know Thijs as the founding father of underwater archaeology in the Dutch Government. Starting alone in 1980, he gradually managed to extend the ‘Afdeling Archeologie Onderwater (AAO). When it merged with the Museum Ketelhaven, the Netherlands Institute for Ship and Underwater Archaeology (NISA) was established. Thijs then started, with a small team
> On 12 Mar 2021, at 19:08, Chuck Meide <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I have just heard this saddening news, and am sharing this statement written by Martijn Manders with the SubArch list: > > "It is with great sadness that I have to announce the passing of Thijs Maarleveld, 11th of March 2021. Thijs was 67 years old. Many of you will know Thijs as the founding father of underwater archaeology in the Dutch Government. Starting alone in 1980, he gradually managed to extend the ‘Afdeling Archeologie Onderwater (AAO). When
Not to mention Roger Smith, Pilar Luna, and Dick Gould. I had not anticipated a period in my career when we would lose so many giants in the field.
Chuck
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Alexandre Monteiro Sent: Friday, March 12, 2021 2:22 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Thijs Maarleveld
George Bass, Patrick Pomey my son (at just 33 years old), this not been a Good month!
John de Bry
Sent from my iPhone 8 Plus
> On Mar 12, 2021, at 14:31, Chuck Meide <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Not to mention Roger Smith, Pilar Luna, and Dick Gould. I had not anticipated a period in my career when we would lose so many giants in the field. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Alexandre Monteiro > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2021 2:22 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject:
Yes, this COVID and a rugged lifestyle has caught up with us.
The loss in EXPERIENCE is the worst. We have ALL seen so much and had SO MUCH that we wanted to pass on to the next generation of Maritime investigators both in lessons learned and opportunities lost.
For the rest of us, we need to KEEP healthy and pass on our knowledge with TED Talks, publications, and oral interviews. Modern medicine MAY keep our minds if not our bodies active through our 80's. As a young 73-year-old and relatively healthy with a 70-year-old wife, we are going to
I am researching the importation of carronades on early vessels to New Zealand. The museum I am working with has a gunnade in its collection, but the historical reference in the ships invoices are for a carronade. Does anyone have insight as to when the tern ‘gunnade’ was used?
My understanding is that gunnade was an American term used later, in the 19th century, essentially for a carronade-like gun with trunnions. The earliest carronades with trunnions, like those on HMS Sirius, HMS Pandora, and the Storm Wreck here in Florida, are not gunnades but true carronades of an early design. The Carron Iron Company soon changed designs to eliminate the trunnions and use a loop and bolt arrangement on a specialized carriage.
Ok, even though I have to rush out for my covid vaccine appointment, I did a quick look up for you in one of our reports:
A trunnioned carronade should not be confused with a gunnade, which was a later development. These were carronade derivatives, with the general shape of carronades but with trunnions and somewhat longer barrels. The term gunnade (also known as gunades or insurance guns), at least initially, seems to have been associated with the U.S. Navy; its earliest appearance was in an 1821 U.S. Navy inventory, and it was used in an inspection report of U.S.
Perfect Chuck, those terms have to be sorted out and the right terminology used.
John de Bry, PhD, FAC Director Center for Historical Archaeology, Inc. [log in to unmask] Web Site: historicalarchaeology.org Phone: (321) 795.7086
Sent from my iPhone 8 Plus
> On Mar 9, 2021, at 16:46, Chuck Meide <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > My understanding is that gunnade was an American term used later, in the 19th century, essentially for a carronade-like gun with trunnions. The earliest carronades with trunnions, like those on HMS Sirius, HMS Pandora, and the Storm Wreck here in Florida, are not gunnades but true carronades of an
We are coming to the end of Mayflower 400, the commemoration of the voyage of the Mayflower from Plymouth to the ‘New World’ in 1620. Sadly, many of the events associated with this have had to be postponed until 2021.
I spent a lot of time at the end of last year & the beginning of this researching what Plymouth, UK, looked like at the time of the visit of the Mayflower & Speedwell & this has fed into a virtual reality project put together by Professor Bob Stone, who recently retired from the University of Birmingham, the Virtual Mayflower
At the moment I am helping another colleague with his project as he has come across a document that is mentioned by a historian Mr. Ian Nicholson in one of his books:
Log of logs : a catalogue of logs, journals, shipboard diaries, letters, and all forms of voyage narratives, 1788-1988, for Australia and New Zealand and surrounding oceans
Plymouth City Council is recruiting for a 12 month fixed term contract, 3 days a week, looking to appoint at a H Grade.
Deadline is 11 October so please feel free to circulate as widely as possible. We are looking for someone with knowledge and experience of marine management, partnership working and preparing funding bids to be part of this incredibly exciting project.
I am writing to announce that we have an open position for a Diving Safety Officer/Maritime Archaeologist here at LAMP at the St. Augustine Lighthouse & Maritime Museum in St. Augustine, Florida.
Please share the following link with any individuals or institutions that you think might be interested.
Today we have been commemorating the 400th Anniversary of the sailing from Plymouth (UK) of the Mayflower, in a low key (socially distanced) way.
The Virtual Mayflower Project has been launched today, put together by fellow Plymothian Prof Bob Stone & his team at Birmingham Univ, with virtually no budget.
https://1620mayflower.co.uk/
This is a fantastic project, which I helped with, & includes the map of the harbour I put together with local artist Chris Robinson.
Thank you! But, a plan to let them back in the future would likely be beneficial as both post very good and relevant content, usually.
Kelly Monteleone
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Anita Cohen Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 8:55 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Before everyone unsubscribes from SUB-ARCH...
I have thrown the two antagonists off SUB-ARCH, so if you have sent me a request to unsubscribe, please re-think it.
I think I agree with Kelly, Anita . . . though that conversation was getting tedious. I miss the good old days where our controversies were strictly treasure-hunting related!
Chuck
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Kelly Monteleone Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:57 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Before everyone unsubscribes from SUB-ARCH...
I will first apologize to all for my analogy which I so crudely injected into the "conversation."
I do agree that both do post interesting and relevant things so will join the chorus to consider reinstatement at some point in the future. Maybe some sort of promise to not antagonize in the same manner but good luck with that.
It was almost fine until it was getting personal. To have different views of something is certainly ok, but it did quickly devolve...
Thanks for managing, Anita, and I also agree that after a cooling off period they have a lot to offer.
Cheers! /kess
> On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:15 , Chuck Meide <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I think I agree with Kelly, Anita . . . though that conversation was getting tedious. I miss the good old days where our controversies were strictly treasure-hunting related! > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion
I agree with Kelly and John, I enjoy the informative posts the two have contributed in the past. I regret (as I am sure they do) the detour into argument, but hope an isolated mistake of temper does not prevent their return.
-J
*Jeffery R. Patterson, PhD* Lecturer University of Texas at Austin
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:28 AM Gary C. Kessler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I agree with Chuck and co. Consider letting them back on board at some point as both have much to offer. I too miss the old days of sparring over what should be done with shipwrecks. Hopefully not all will be relegated to the tender mercies of “in situ” preservation in the kindly oceanic environment. Private/public efforts are the only way forward in some substantive management strategies of assessing and perhaps preserving some of this fascinating resource. Meanwhile civil discourse is a lesson that I think we could all put into practice. Cheers Jim
Some years ago I requested that I be removed from this group and STILL want my name removed. Actually thought it had been !!
Was always So difficult to understand the Ivory Tower Professors who were always too personal about their research findings and seldom published data/info for others to study. It was always their way or the Highway and they were snarky & quite insulting to anyone who disagreed with their Underwater “Work-Research”. I think I recall being called a Pirate… PLEASE remove me…Have fun, Guys ~~~
I asked to be removed years ago and still get these.
Kevin Matthews
> On 10 Jun 2020, at 20:07, Ellan Dodson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Some years ago I requested that I be removed from this group and STILL want my name removed. Actually thought it had been !! > > Was always So difficult to understand the Ivory Tower Professors who were always too personal > about their research findings and seldom published data/info for others to study. It was always their way or the Highway and they were snarky & quite insulting to anyone who disagreed
I forgot to mention another resource available online regarding hulks.
This is a Facebook page I put together in 2013 to disseminate information regarding the hulks & provide photos of them.
Unfortunately, I have been too busy on other projects over the past couple of years to maintain it , but it still has nearly 600 Likes & Followers, and continues to be used – with 19 views in the past 24 hours.
Mr Sexton has asked for a better discussion (I think). How about something very relevant to the moment. I posted the below on Facebook earlier this week:
Whilst I condemn the unlawful toppling of the statue of Edward Colston in Bristol, it should have been removed long ago. However, we have a democratic system for doing this sort of thing.
As I only get the daily Digest for Sub-Arch, I will wait until tomorrow before giving a more considered reply to Petes’ strange attack on me. This will give him the opportunity to apologise & to promise to seek professional help for his paranoia, insecurity & delusions of importance. I've never known Pete to admit to being wrong on anything, still less apologise, but we can all live in hope of miracles happening.
As I only get the daily Digest for Sub-Arch, I will wait until tomorrow before giving a more considered reply to Petes’ strange attack on me. This will give him the opportunity to apologise & to promise to seek professional help for his paranoia, insecurity & delusions of importance. I've never known Pete to admit to being wrong on anything, still less apologise, but we can all live in hope of miracles happening.
The email below from Peter Holt confused me for quite a while - then it made me angry!
I am replying to this very quickly to rebut the obvious, but I will make a more considered response later.
> Quick fake news correction. Data management and database design for the Vliegent Hart, Mary Rose and Rooswijk projects was done by 3H Consulting Ltd., not Martin Read.
I assume you would have preferred me to have let Petes ignorance & bigging up of himself stand without challenge? He even stated that it was a 'fake news correction'. Instead, it just added more fake news!
I would have thought & expected Pete to have praised the production of this very useful & interesting website bringing a lot of new information regarding our work in the 2000s to those interested. Kester & PeteM should be congratulated for their hard work, the online database will be of use to many archaeologists.
& a chance to see what I did during my summer hols.
A website has been released which includes details of the excavation of several important wreck sites
https://www.maarer.com/
Sites include the Vliegent Hart (off Belgium) & the Rooswijk (off Kent), both Dutch East Indiamen. There are also downloadable reports on VOC sites such as the Vliegent Hart & Amsterdam.
Quick fake news correction. Data management and database design for the Vliegent Hart, Mary Rose and Rooswijk projects was done by 3H Consulting Ltd., not Martin Read.
The design of our finds handling and data management system used on the Vliegent Hart is documented in the Vliegent Hart 2000 Report available on the MAARER site. Contributors to the report include Rex Cowan, archaeological director Alex Hildred, Peter Holt, Paul Dart, project conservator Ton van der Horst, Mark Fuller and Wilbert Weber.
> On Jun 8, 2020, at 15:11, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi chaps, > > Quick fake news correction. Data management and database design for the > Vliegent Hart, Mary Rose and Rooswijk projects was done by 3H Consulting > Ltd., not Martin Read. > > The design of our finds handling and data management system used on the > Vliegent Hart is documented in the Vliegent Hart 2000 Report available on > the MAARER site. Contributors to the report include Rex Cowan, > archaeological director Alex Hildred,
Hello group, Interested to know if there are any on the list that have had experience with utilizing the type of X-ray scanners that are used on baggage in airports on encrusted conglomerates from shipwrecks? I know and have used standard X-ray machines and the resultant images in the past, but it occurs to me that the sort that are used in airports with digital images would/could be quite a bit faster and provide multiple angels on an object by simple rotation. I’m not and X-ray tech and I don’t think that most of the folks operating the machines at
Back before nine-eleven we were able to occasionally find a friendly and curious security officer in our small local airport who would x-ray a few artifacts for us. It was very useful, but mostly for objects without too much thickness. The technology is much better now but access would be difficult.
Some medical units now have portable units and we also got help from a dentist or two.
Hi Jim, Yes, we have experience with digital x-raying of concretions. We used an old hospital x-ray machine for years. Now we have a deal with a local hospital (in Turkey) that will do digital x-rays for us. Much faster & we do get various angles of each concretion. Works fine
> On Dec 14, 2019, at 8:53 AM, John Broadwater <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Jim, > > Back before nine-eleven we were able to occasionally find a friendly and > curious security officer in our small local airport who would x-ray a few > artifacts for us. It was very useful, but mostly for objects without too > much thickness. The technology is much better now but access would be > difficult. > > Some medical units now have portable units and we also got help from a > dentist or two. >
John Thanks I was hoping to hear something along those lines.. I would like at some point to take a couple of conglomerates and use those machines and see what we get., Cheers Jim
> On Dec 14, 2019, at 8:58 AM, John D. Littlefield <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > Yes, we have experience with digital x-raying of concretions. We used an old hospital x-ray machine for years. Now we have a deal with a local hospital (in Turkey) that will do digital x-rays for us. Much faster & we do get various angles of each concretion. Works
Just as an outside thought, maybe you could talk to your local homeland security folks about building a database of digital imagery of encrusted objects (volunteering a collection of encrustations to be scanned). It would give them a broader range of scans from a context they probably don't get much chance to examine (and provide you a library of digital scans).
The following books are for sale by the Center for Historical Archaeology, Inc.:
Oceans Odyssey 1, 2, 3 and 4, Oxbow Books, Oxford, UK, 2010, 2011, 2013, & 2014. New. Sold as set of 4. $150.00. Please add $13.60 for four (4) books for USPS Priority Mailing (2 days)
Also:
Hollandia Compendium: A Contribution to the History, Archaeology, Classification and Lexicography of a 150 ft Dutch East Indiaman (1740-1750), Jerzy Gawronski, Bas Kist, & Ondilia Stokvis-van Boetzelaer, Rijks Museum, Elsevier 1992. Numbered Copy 1227. Like New. $300.00 (sells for up to $672.00).
Hi John! Do you have Greg Stemm's email? I wanted to ask him if I can have a photo of the astrolabe that is signed (Seahawk II, No. 68) . I put it down as signed by Dias and now I don't remember why I did it, and the pictures Greg gave me are not clear enough...
Filipe, I'm sorry, but I don't have a current email for Greg. If you get it, please share with me. John
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:34 PM Filipe Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi John! Do you have Greg Stemm's email? I wanted to ask him if I can > have a photo of the astrolabe that is signed (Seahawk II, No. 68) . I put > it down as signed by Dias and now I don't remember why I did it, and the > pictures Greg gave me are not clear enough... >
If you are interested in getting a copy in either hardback or eBook then you can use this discount code HUM19 to get 20% off. All royalties go to the World Archaeological Congress to support Indigenous peoples to attend meetings.
Very interesting and I will surely take a look at it.
Best wishes
Geraldo Hostins
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 2:06 PM Maddy Fowler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Please see below information on my new book Aboriginal Maritime Landscapes > in South Australia: The Balance Ground. > > > https://www.routledge.com/Aboriginal-Maritime-Landscapes-in-South-Australia-The-Balance-Ground/Fowler/p/book/9780815373285 > > If you are interested in getting a copy in either hardback or eBook then > you can use this discount code HUM19 to get 20% off. All royalties go to > the World Archaeological Congress to support Indigenous peoples to attend > meetings. > > Kind
Hello all at SubArch… I am hoping to begin a second edition of my book on Ship’s Fastenings… while I have the reviewer’s comments on the first edition and new material and research to hand ….If you have any comments or suggestions or material-reports-articles you think should be considered for inclusion (remembering the work is but a wide-ranging ‘primer’ point folk in a myriad of directions) they would be appreciated and duly acknowledged.
Thanks for letting us know of your new plans. Wish you the best .
Also thanks for all help in the past. I will not forget you.
Best wishes
Geraldo Hostin
On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:51 AM Michael McCarthy < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello all at SubArch… I am hoping to begin a second edition of my book on > Ship’s Fastenings… while I have the reviewer’s comments on the first > edition and new material and research to hand ….If you have any comments > or suggestions or material-reports-articles you think should be considered >
I'm sure we will have more discussions in the future, but I would like to publicly thank you for all your support and advice over the years we have known each other. Without a lot of fanfare you were instrumental in guiding the search for SYDNEY and backing my role as Search Director. Others have received the accolades but the truth is the 2008 search expedition would never have happened without your invisible hand. It was great to have you onboard during the ROV filming as no one deserved that precious berth more than you.
Congrats on your retirement and applaud you for the fine first edition of your valuable book and contribution to the field. Please let us know when the second edition comes out.. Cheers Jim Sinclair
> On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:50 AM, Michael McCarthy <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hello all at SubArch… I am hoping to begin a second edition of my book on Ship’s Fastenings… while I have the reviewer’s comments on the first edition and new material and research to hand ….If you have any comments or suggestions or material-reports-articles you think should be considered for inclusion (remembering
Congrats Mack, enjoy your well earned retirement. Maybe you could come here to Newport for a visit and help identify the possible Endeavour site, I can see the area from my office window here at the Naval War College. I had the pleasure of meeting a couple of your countrymen last year when they were here to dive the sites, one of which may be Cook's.
Congratulations on your retirement, although I feel certain you fall into the same "retired" category with so many of us who can't stop doing what we've always loved to do.
Your first book on ships' fastenings has been a great resource and I'm sure the second edition will be even more so. I want to add my congratulations for your many contributions to our field and to thank you for all the help and advice you've given me over the years.
> On Aug 6, 2019, at 18:17, John Broadwater <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Mack, > > Congratulations on your retirement, although I feel certain you fall into > the same "retired" category with so many of us who can't stop doing what > we've always loved to do. > > Your first book on ships' fastenings has been a great resource and I'm sure > the second edition will be even more so. I want to add my congratulations > for your many contributions
Mack has been a fantastic help the Maritime Archaeology Association of Western Australia, without his support MAAWA would have likely withered away. From a professional viewpoint Macks always ready to listen and give advice when needed. Many thanks, Mack for all your help over the years Cheers Ian
Robert Marx recently suffered the loss of both legs and has passed away yesterday.
He was a mighty foe and a dynamo of energy. Still full of lies and fantasies - but he managed to convince the Portuguese government, back in the early 90's to pass TH legislation into law.
In a way, his move was the starting point for our full rebellion and the reason Portugal is nowadays a state party to the UNESCO Convention.
A truly judicious and, dare I say, respectful notice.
-J
*Jeffery R. Patterson, PhD* Lecturer University of Texas at Austin
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:06 PM Alexandre Monteiro < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Robert Marx recently suffered the loss of both legs and has passed > away yesterday. > > He was a mighty foe and a dynamo of energy. Still full of lies and > fantasies - but he managed to convince the Portuguese government, back > in the early 90's to pass TH legislation into law. > > In a way, his move was the starting
Sorry to hear this about Bob. For good or bad, Bob influenced our early development of our views concerning Underwater cultural heritage. I am glad to have known him.
Charlie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 5, 2019, at 2:58 PM, Jeffery R Patterson, PhD <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Alexandre: > > A truly judicious and, dare I say, respectful notice. > > -J > > *Jeffery R. Patterson, PhD* > Lecturer > University of Texas at Austin > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:06 PM Alexandre Monteiro < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Robert Marx
Unlike Alexandre, my relationship with Bob was both cordial and professional. We met when he applied for a permit to search for the San Agustin in Drake Bay. When the permit was granted I became the project's state coordinator and his monitor for the search effort. As he privately admitted, the search, unlikely to succeed, was a good way to raise money from local would be treasure hunters. We spent many hours together and I am happy to call him a friend. He was one of the most fascinating individuals I have ever known. RIP, Bob.
It seems that the only obituary to have been made so far of Marx is the one published by the Spanish ABC neewspaper. The photo is from an interview he gave newspaper journalist Jesus Calero some years ago.
I was asked to co-write it and here is my unedited contribution. The whole obituary can be read (in Spanish) on the link below:
In the early days of the ACUA, I worked with Bob Marx for a number of years. Not the ACUA’s earliest days, but early. Bob was friendly and generous when I had specific inquiries such as rumors regarding Padre Island, some treasure salvors, Mendel Peterson maybe consulting for them, etc. Also, regarding a range of archive type questions and his vast historical and artifact knowledge. My experience was more like Peter’s. Favorable.
Calling a dead man foul names makes you look weak and pathetic, not him. The sad part is that you are actually proud of your words and think your peers will give you kudos for bashing him, they will not. I hope you are proud of yourself, you are likely the only one. I hope that someday you find as many wrecks and publish as many books and papers as Bob. Maybe then you can start talking about your own accomplishments instead of trying to tear everyone else's down.
I have fond memories of Bob. First time I met him (as a grad student in archaeology), he tried to borrow money from me. I was as bewildered as I was broke. Still, he invited me to one of his fundraising evenings at a countess's house on Philadelphia's Main Line--an unforgettable experience. I learned about shares and their fractions. I was on the ACUA and already an outspoken preservation advocate when he stepped down from the group. We had several talks about his resignation, and he understood and embraced the nuanced issues. Like some others with a tilt towards treasure,
Jason, I have to admit you've piqued my curiosity. Who was Bob Marx to you that you bust out all your hating for Alexandre, who reported a string of verifiable facts about Marx's larger than life claims? You sounded like he kicked your dog. Have you noticed that even the most cordial in Marx's defense haven't gainsaid Alexandre?
I guess there is a lesson here: dont be a treasure hunter while you’re still alive.
Dont be Margaret Rule, who went down as a treasure hunter, helping Arqueonautas sell African countries UCH instead of being fondly remembered for her work as the Mary Rose.
No dia 11/07/2019, às 00:20, Alex Hazlett <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
I have no dog in this fight other than my belief that people should show a little class when speaking about the departed, maybe I'm old-fashioned. I did consult with Bob on a project but we weren't close friends, I haven't spoken to him in almost 5 years. I also consulted with your mentor Filipe Castro on his astrolabe book (an Astrolabe that we found is in his book). I have incredible respect for Donny Hamilton also of TAMU and consulted with him about the conservation techniques we developed for Pewter after finding 1200 pieces of 1550's English Pewter
A comment in response to Jason’s most recent email:
I have to say that there are plenty of degreed academic archaeologists who get out in the field and make discoveries. I have seen this claim—that archaeologists don’t discover anything—made before by treasure hunters somewhat regularly. That claim has always bugged me, as it’s certainly not the case from my point of view. While there are plenty of academics who focus on teaching, or lab work, or non-fieldwork research, there are lots of archaeologists who get out in the field regularly. My team gets out on the water for 3-4 months
It would occurs to me that if Bob was still on this side of the bar he passed over, he would get a big kick out of his being able to stir the pot - so to speak - one last time.. Sail on Robert-
> On Jul 12, 2019, at 1:04 AM, Chuck Meide <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > A comment in response to Jason’s most recent email: > > I have to say that there are plenty of degreed academic archaeologists who get out in the field and make discoveries. I have seen this claim—that archaeologists don’t discover anything—made
My comment wasn't meant to imply that Archaeologists never make discoveries, in fact I have recommended your field school to a few people who were interested in the field (I believe Austin Kirkburg attended a few years back on my recommendation. My interest was originally in remote sensing survey and diving, however, when I spoke to an academic advisor (in Texas in 1987) he told me that most didn't get to do much field work in the maritime programs because surveying and excavation were so costly and budgets for historical programs were already tight. Several factors went into my
There is a document on the Spanish archives written by French survivors of la Salle's expedition to the Spanish authorities, signed by Jean L'Archevêque, with a very beautiful, page sized colour drawing of what I think can be the one of the four French ships of that fleet (or it might the drawing of some French warship, on which the survivors wrote their call for help letter..)
On Thu, May 16, 2019, 7:57 PM Alexandre Monteiro < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> There is a document on the Spanish archives written by French > survivors of la Salle's expedition to the Spanish authorities, signed > by Jean L'Archevêque, with a very beautiful, page sized colour drawing > of what I think can be the one of the four French ships of that fleet > (or it might the drawing of some French warship, on which the > survivors wrote their call for help letter..) > > Is this known? I don't
I recently saw a drawing of a French warship from the Spanish archives that was labeled La Belle, and I think it had an appropriate date, but it was outfitted with way to many guns to be the Belle which wrecked in Texas in 1686. Not sure where this was from but it was shown to me by Spanish archaeologist Carlos Leon Amores. If it was a depiction of another ship in the expedition, it would have had to have been the warship Le Jolly, as it was a double-decker bristling with guns.
Document description has a transcript and agrees with the Le Joly description:
"Presenta la vista de un navío de tres mástiles con las velas desplegadas y la artillería dispuesta. Mascarón de proa con una figura femenina delantera y otra trasera. . Anotaciones en francés en letra muy desvaída. En el lado derecho se escribe:
Yes, this is the drawing that I saw. Carlos thought it depicted the Belle until I noted how many guns it had.
It is a beautiful drawing!
Chuck
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alexandre Monteiro Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 1:35 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: La Salle's expedition survivor´s letter to the Spanish
I am finishing a co-authored paper on our use of Light AUV's last November on a survey off the Sharjah emirate, UAE.
I am looking for recent, i.e. last 5 years, papers on AUV use for nautical archaeology, preferably in open access mode (or will appreciate any PDF sending to: [log in to unmask])
A French village is offering a reward to anyone who can decipher an unusual inscription on a rock located on a nearby beach. The inscription includes a series of capitalized letters, two dates (1786 & 1787) & carvings of a sacred heart & a boat with sails – I have yet to find an image with this on. It may be written in old Breton or Basque.
Hello all - to set the background - archaeology, both land and underwater is governed by the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport (provincial level government) issuing archaeological licences for both land and underwater. It is 95% centered on land archaeology, and sadly 5% or less on marine archaeology. The Ontario Marine Heritage Committee now meets with the Ministry on a bi-annual basis where we raise concerns, suggestions, offer assistance, etc. We have been tasked with a number of items, one of which if providing the Ministry with examples of effective jurisdictions practicing marine archaeology, where any development work is
> On 14 May 2019, at 13:26, Scarlett Janusas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hello all - to set the background - archaeology, both land and underwater is > governed by the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport (provincial level > government) issuing archaeological licences for both land and underwater. > It is 95% centered on land archaeology, and sadly 5% or less on marine > archaeology. The Ontario Marine Heritage Committee now meets with the > Ministry on a bi-annual basis where we raise concerns, suggestions, offer > assistance, etc.
Unfortunately we are not covered by that in Ontario, although we will urge the same.
Thanks
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alexandre Monteiro Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:31 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: effective legislation re: marine heritage
The UNESCO convention comes to mind...
Sent from my iPhone
> On 14 May 2019, at 13:26, Scarlett Janusas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hello all - to set the background - archaeology, both land and > underwater is governed by the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport > (provincial level > government) issuing archaeological licences
Should have added https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/33
Steve
> On 14 May 2019, at 15:03, Scarlett Janusas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Unfortunately we are not covered by that in Ontario, although we will urge > the same. > > Thanks > > -----Original Message----- > From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On > Behalf Of Alexandre Monteiro > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:31 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: effective legislation re: marine heritage > > The UNESCO convention comes to mind... > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 14 May 2019, at 13:26, Scarlett Janusas <[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Roue Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:50 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: effective legislation re: marine heritage
Should have added https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/33
Steve
> On 14 May 2019, at 15:03, Scarlett Janusas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Unfortunately we are not covered by that in Ontario, although we will > urge the same. > > Thanks > > -----Original Message----- > From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > On Behalf Of Alexandre Monteiro > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:31 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: effective
As an example of effective legislation that potentially could be adapted for your purposes please see the Underwater Cultural Heritage Act 2018 (Cth) - Australia.
Regards
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
> On 14 May 2019, at 2:27 pm, Scarlett Janusas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hello all - to set the background - archaeology, both land and underwater is > governed by the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport (provincial level > government) issuing archaeological licences for both land and underwater. > It is 95% centered on land archaeology, and sadly 5% or less on marine > archaeology.
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Andrew Viduka Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:32 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: effective legislation re: marine heritage
Hi Scarlett
As an example of effective legislation that potentially could be adapted for your purposes please see the Underwater Cultural Heritage Act 2018 (Cth) - Australia.
The province of British Columbia has arguably the strongest shipwreck protection provisions in the world.
Under the Heritage Conservation Act (HCA), a permit is needed from the provincial archaeology branch to remove or alter any shipwreck or shipwreck artifact on a wrecked vessel or aircraft where 2 or more years have passed from the date that the vessel or aircraft sank, was washed ashore or crashed. This provision focuses on use, protection and alteration not ownership, much like heritage protection on dry land focuses on those values. My wife and I own our house but we cannot tear it down,
Thank you Tom. We are going to put a brief together for our Ministry (MTCS) and will definitely highlight BC. Very much appreciated. And yes, legislation without education is ineffective.
Regards Scarlett
-----Original Message----- From: Underwater Archaeology Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:04 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: effective legislation re: marine heritage
> Not sure why wrecks with possible remains are such an issue, as it should be more a case of education rather than legislation. People should be taught to respect remains
> legislation without education is ineffective.
You need both. Why do we have legislation? Because SOME people will not behave as they should even if education is provided.
Hello - both are needed. We've been "educating" the diving population since the 1970s and while some progress has been made, there is a still the mentality that archaeological resources underwater are meant for recreational divers. At what point do we stop treating underwater resources differently than land archaeological resources? Some members of this discussion group have shown me examples where legislation is effective (thank you all!) but in Ontario, at a provincial level, it does not work! In the case of the JANE MILLER, it has been known since she sank that there were dead aboard, and yet that
Truly effective management of UCH has yet to be achieved in England which leaves us with a curious situation which can be illustrated by an example. A cannon was recently dredged up from Plymouth, England, during a government contract. The contractor let the dredger captain take the cannon away with him. As far as we can tell the contractor did not contact any heritage agency. The cannon was dumped on a quay, we tracked it down and recorded it sufficiently to be able to identify it. We alerted the heritage agency who responded by saying that they would put it
Excellent description of the problems plaguing The UK, as well as other places in the world. Something has to be done, private ownership is unacceptable.
John Director, Center for Historical Archaeology, Inc.
Sent from my iPhone 8
> On May 15, 2019, at 13:02, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Truly effective management of UCH has yet to be achieved in England which > leaves us with a curious situation which can be illustrated by an example. > A cannon was recently dredged up from Plymouth, England, during a government > contract. The contractor let the dredger captain take the
The most modern wreck legislation in the UK is provided by Scotland: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2010/5/pdfs/asp_20100005_en.pdf
Where areas of the seabed can be designated, the restrictions will vary with the site.
There was a major upgrade in our planning legislation 10 years ago. The Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/23/contents
The conditions for a licence for the development to proceed could include archaeological survey and excavation of the site.
As with many issues related to UCH in England, there is a big difference between the theory as touted by the management organisations and the practice for those working in the field. The Marine and Coastal Access Act was originally intended to control dredging and major civil engineering works and to make the planning process simpler. Somehow diving activities got jammed into the legislation at the last minute even though the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) who manage the process had no-one with any knowledge of the subject. All archaeology work involving disturbance to the seabed then required MMO permission, even
Thank you Peter for a balanced and thoughtful post - so much so that in decades of following this discussion list I find myself responding!
I agree with all you have to say but not sure that ownership in itself is the answer. Ownership is a bundle of rights and protected by a range of measures, including human rights legislation, and depriving an owner of property (even if it is an insurer of a wreck over 100 years old) is problematic. I am also not entirely sure that making the Crown owner would solve the problem you so clearly explain
> What we need is a law stating that objects over 100 years are the property of the Crown. This would remove the issues associated with ownership,
Everything recovered from the sea around the UK already has an owner. If the original owner/organisation or descendants/successors are not locatable, then they belong to the owner of the seabed. This is already, usually, the Crown. This is what the RoW does. Just nationalising private property does not sound fair to me.
> A cannon was recently dredged up from Plymouth, England, during a government contract. When you say Govt contract, who do you mean? My guess is that this was a maintenance dredge managed by the Cattewater Harbour Commissioners (who are not part of Govt).
The dredging contractor would have needed a Licence in order to dredge. This licence should have included provisions on what to do with recovered material. Though if this is a maintenance dredge & that it is a legacy licence, this may not be in place. The responsible authority in the Cattewater are the Cattewater Commissioners who,
> Are there any pieces of legislation that protect wrecks/submerged resources from diving activity?
The UK Protection of Wrecks Act 1973 restrict diving on designated sites & the Protection of Military remains Act 1986 also includes provisions to restrict diving. Probably the best legislation in the UK is the Marine (Scotland) Act 2010, which includes a range of restrictions that could be applied depending on the site.
Hi Martin - the Ontario Heritage Act of 1974 supposedly protects ALL archaeological resources, including those under water. And there is a piece of legislation that protects three wrecks in particular: the Hamilton, the Scourge and the Edmund Fitzgerald. Even the three latter have had illegal diving activities on them. Individuals are supposed to have an archaeological license to conduct survey, recording, excavation, but few actually take out a licence, and the licence applications are so loose that anyone appears to be able to acquire a licence. Activities that happen on a submerged resource, whether it be a wreck or
I have been able to get some feedback on some of the recent discussion from the relevant authorities, who were very prompt in their replies (when they didn't have to).
The Cattewater Harbourmaster has replied concerning the gun recovered during recent dredging: The MMO falls under the national legislation for reporting. We have had regular communications with the receiver of wreck, and the MMO over this cannon.
Unfortunately, you have simply got involved in something that has already been arranged. Through discussions between The SHIPS Project team, the Cattewater Commissioners and the Receiver of Wreck we have agreed that the cannon will come under our care and will for the time being be stored at a local, private shipwreck museum. Meanwhile, we will still try to find a long-term home for the gun and are working with experts in the field to get it identified.
This discussion - although very UK centered - has been very enlightning and enriching for me.
I fail to see where Martin Read went flaming or trolling.
Em sex, 17 de mai de 2019 às 19:58, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > Dear Martin Read, > > Unfortunately, you have simply got involved in something that has already been arranged. Through discussions between The SHIPS Project team, the Cattewater Commissioners and the Receiver of Wreck we have agreed that the cannon will come under our care and will for the time being be stored at a local, private shipwreck museum.
> On May 17, 2019, at 1:41 PM, Martin Read <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I have been able to get some feedback on some of the recent discussion from the relevant authorities, who were very prompt in their replies (when they didn't have to). > > The Cattewater Harbourmaster has replied concerning the gun recovered during recent dredging: > The MMO falls under the national legislation for reporting. We have had regular communications with the receiver of wreck, and the MMO over this cannon. > > The licence makes no reference to recovered heritage
> Unfortunately, you have simply got involved in something that has already been arranged. Through discussions between The SHIPS Project team, the Cattewater Commissioners and the Receiver of Wreck we have agreed that the cannon will come under our care and will for the time being be stored at a local, private shipwreck museum.
Is there still some reference to the original topic, or is this something that is better debated offline?
I think all of us are interested in the way countries are dealing with legislation and enforcement of laws regarding UCH, but it would be more helpful if the topic were discussed with fewer personal attacks.
> Is there still some reference to the original topic, or is this something that is better debated offline? I think the conversation had run its course, unless Pete wanted to take the opportunity to publicly apologise...
> For those of us not intimately familiar with UK's laws and enforcement policies, some basics would be helpful. Anything specific you'd like to know from the UK, I'm sure someone could help.
I tried to follow the thread back to the first post, and I discovered some very helpful responses to the original request for examples of effective maritime heritage legislation. I think we might all agree that the biggest problem is changing laws that the majority of citizens are comfortable with. In so many countries (the U.S. is a good example) private recovery and ownership of UCH is a longstanding tradition--some call it a "right". Just within the U.S., some states have very modern, protective laws, while others have none at all.
If by salt we mean sodium chloride, this should not be a good option for the long-term maintenance of wood unless we have very controlled relative humidity conditions. The problem is definitely the hygroscopicity of this salt compound. The consolidation with sugar of soaked wood is a similar solution, instead of pickles it is candied fruit, but not very useful as has already been demonstrated. However, it is interesting to know traditional experiences because it is always the basis to progress in new solutions.
Hello Sub-Arch’ers, Long time lurker, occasional poster here. I am a conservator working with traditional boatbuilders on a project to preserve archaeological wood. One of the suggestions has been to spray the wet materials with saltwater to preserve them. Decades of research in heritage conservation has demonstrated that chlorides from seawater can cause problems if allowed to remain in materials by acting as a catalyst for other reactions or causing physical damage upon drying, but I am not familiar with the practice of saltwater spraying for preservation. Can anyone offer advice on the practice and any ideas behind why it
I haven't heard of salt-water spraying for preservation. Salt or some metal oxides can prevent ageing -some research has been carried out on material from a Bronze Age salt mining site in Hallstatt, Austria. See Tintner, J., Smidt, E., Tieben, J. et al. Wood Sci Technol (2016) 50: 953. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00226-016-0830-4 Aging of wood under long-term storage in a salt environment
I've been working on a PhD thesis. As some of you know, this thesis is about a pirate ship that sunk in Brazil near my hometown in Brazil.
What brings me to send you this message, is that I found one old document about that pirate ship written in French (1719) and although I was able to translate part of it, a vital section is still difficult for me to get.
No dia 29/04/2019, às 05:16, Geraldo Hostin <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
> Dear Friends > > Greetings > > I've been working on a PhD thesis. As some of you know, this thesis is about a pirate ship that sunk in Brazil near my hometown in Brazil. > > What brings me to send you this message, is that I found one old document about that pirate ship written in French (1719) and although I was able to translate part of it, a vital section is still difficult for me to get. > > I
Sends it to me, I’ll be glad to transcribe and translate it.
Best,
John
Sent from my iPhone 8
> On Apr 29, 2019, at 00:16, Geraldo Hostin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Dear Friends > > Greetings > > I've been working on a PhD thesis. As some of you know, this thesis is about a pirate ship that sunk in Brazil near my hometown in Brazil. > > What brings me to send you this message, is that I found one old document about that pirate ship written in French (1719) and although I was able to translate part
Happy to help; a fellow student working towards the PhD.
[log in to unmask]
Best,
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 04:32 Geraldo Hostin <[log in to unmask] wrote:
> Dear Friends > > Greetings > > I have a PhD project about a pirate shipwreck and have had a hard time > identifying its origins > > I have pictures of some of its artefacts that I think are of interest and > helpful for identification. > > If someone is interested in helping me I can send the pictures by e-mail > > Thanks for all help > > Geraldo Hostin. >
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:50 AM Nicholas Budsberg <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi geraldo, > > Happy to help; a fellow student working towards the PhD. > > [log in to unmask] > > Best, > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 04:32 Geraldo Hostin <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > > > Dear Friends > > > > Greetings > > > > I have a PhD project about a pirate shipwreck and have had a hard time > > identifying its origins > > > > I have pictures
If non-destructive pXRF analyses would help, WRI does this on a FREE basis for a limited amount of samples for students, I am a 71 year-old Historical Archaeologist and Archaeogeophysicist working on my dissertation project in Scotland and a shipwreck Project in Jamaica and know how it is.
WRI has helped hundreds of students with pXRF analyses since 2007-including some people with maritime projects If WRI can help, send me the pictures and we can go from there. If you need further information or, just, would like to discuss YOUR project, give me a call at WRI's Confidence House
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:19 PM Richard Lundin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Geraldo: > > If non-destructive pXRF analyses would help, WRI does this on a FREE basis > for a limited amount of samples for students, I am a 71 year-old > Historical Archaeologist and Archaeogeophysicist working on my dissertation > project in Scotland and a shipwreck Project in Jamaica and know how it is. > > WRI has helped hundreds of students with pXRF analyses since 2007-including > some people with maritime projects If WRI
Dr. Toby Jones Curator Newport Medieval Ship Project Unit 20, Estuary Road Queensway Meadows Industrial Estate Newport, South Wales, United Kingdom NP19 4SP
Mae’r Cyngor yn croesawu gohebiaeth yn Gymraeg, Saesneg neu yn y ddwy iaith. Byddwn yn cyfathrebu â chi yn ôl eich dewis. Ni fydd gohebu yn Gymraeg yn arwain at oedi.
a friend of mine, who was asked to write an advisory opinion about the conservation of the object, has send me the accompanying photo of an iron anchor. It is about 2.4 m long and it weighs about 200 kg. It is from the collection of the Deutsche Museum in Munich, but its origin and its date are unknown. According to a short note in the museum's file it was found in Greece and should date to the 4th century BC.
> On Mar 18, 2019, at 5:58 AM, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Why be peer-reviewed if you can get a Guiness World Record certificate? :D > > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/18/worlds-oldest-ships-bell-astrolabe-discovered-516-year-old-portuguese/
(And yet, still they do not explain how can they tie this artifact with a ship supposedly wrecked there).
Em seg, 18 de mar de 2019 às 22:02, James Sinclair <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190318084119.htm > > > On Mar 18, 2019, at 5:58 AM, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > Why be peer-reviewed if you can get a Guiness World Record certificate? :D > > > > > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/18/worlds-oldest-ships-bell-astrolabe-discovered-516-year-old-portuguese/
Perhaps it is more fully explained in the IJNA as referenced in the article? Have not read it as yet..
> On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:10 PM, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > A real feat. A 3.517 year old astrolabe, as certified by Guiness World Records: > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/03/17/TELEMMGLPICT000191702275_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqzpnK1fqIf8AfXYjEGXVTorAdVfYD_pgZfwgBThcgDZU.jpeg?imwidth=1240 > > Officially amazing. > > (And yet, still they do not explain how can they tie this artifact > with a ship supposedly wrecked there). > > > Em seg, 18 de mar de 2019 às 22:02, James Sinclair > <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: >> >> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190318084119.htm >> >>> On
James, it would be a good idea to read the paper and make up your own mind rather than rely on the prejudicial comments of Mr. Monteiro. The paper is open access, as was our original 2016 Interim Report, and I have included the links where you can download the papers below.
Hi David, as discussed previously, face to face and over the course of several emails, I do not find that your findings are in any credible at all. I said it so when this not-that-fresh piece of news first surfaced in 2017 ( https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41724022 )
From the very start, when the "Esmeralda" was apparently meant to be a treasure hunting venture (do these names ring a bell.? KFYJA Limited, Gwilym Ashworth, Mark Cliff, The Esmeralda Marine Search LLP, Colin Emson, Robert Fraser Marine Ltd?) that the fate of this project was to tie the name Vasco da Gama to that
David, My thanks for the links. Which I will most certainly read. I unfortunately know all about Montiero, he is opinionated in the extreme and will undoubtedly be critical of any project that he is not involved with. I have followed your work with great interest and am in wholehearted agreement with strategies and modalities of interaction with underwater cultural heritage that reaches a wider audience. Otherwise, the whole of underwater archaeology is doing nothing but publishing for each other to be read by each other and critiqued by each other. Awfully incestuous course. So please keep the information out
Les beaux esprits se recontrent, it is a nice French saying for Jim's solidarity with David.
Not trying to beat an already dead horse, back in 2017 Portuguese nautical archaeologists and historians (that were not me) all doubted that astrolabe argument (yes, this is a 1,5 year old "news")
David, as you do not speak Portuguese, I am taking the liberty of sending you the link for the 2017 already google translated newspaper article:
So Alex, if I understand you correctly it your way or no way, is that correct? Seems like everyone you mentioned, that has gained any notoriety because of the work they have done on UW sites is to be painted with the same brush? Unless the world - now inclusive of UNESCO (apparently now complicit) is not following your exact way of managing the resource, they are to be denigrated and disparaged? I might suggest that multiple avenues of resource management might be better for preservation, but am sure that would fall on deaf ears. Keep fighting that fight though.
"Better leave a site to rot than to let treasure hunters have their go at it"
"If treasure hunters do get to have a treasure, please God, have the Flag State sue them into bankruptcy"
Em ter, 19 de mar de 2019 às 17:39, James Sinclair <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > So Alex, if I understand you correctly it your way or no way, is that correct? Seems like everyone you mentioned, that has gained any notoriety because of the work they have done on UW sites
Yes and this is exactly why you are an example I use time and again. My thanks.
> On Mar 19, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Yes, Jim. My mantras: > > "No selling of artifacts" > > "Do not cavort with treasure hunters" > > "Better leave a site to rot than to let treasure hunters have their go at it" > > "If treasure hunters do get to have a treasure, please God, have the > Flag State sue them into bankruptcy" > > > > > > Em ter, 19 de mar
Why do we keep thrashing this poor dead horse? He's been dead a long time, and thrashing only spatters the gore and corruption on everyone.
The national and international news these days seems to indicate a general unwillingness to compromise or even try to understand the other side's position. So in that sense, I guess maritime archaeology is "trending." However, I would much rather see us setting a trend towards civility and constructive dialogue.
John You are correct, and in a more collegial spirit... Not peer reviewed but https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1101980/ancient-egypt-news-mystery-shipwreck-herodotus-archaeological-barris-discovery-river-nile
> On Mar 19, 2019, at 4:45 PM, John Broadwater <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Gentlemen, gentlemen! > > Why do we keep thrashing this poor dead horse? He's been dead a long time, > and thrashing only spatters the gore and corruption on everyone. > > The national and international news these days seems to indicate a general > unwillingness to compromise or even try to understand the other side's > position. So in that sense, I guess maritime archaeology is "trending." > However, I
While I am loathe to prolong this discussion, and with all due respect to John Broadwater’s call for civility, in his rambling reply Mr. Monteiro has made some false and damaging accusations (essentially libelous) that demand a response.
First, our ‘Sodre’ project, which was initiated by Blue Water Recoveries Ltd in 1997, was never a treasure hunt. Moreover, Mr. Monteiro’s references to The Esmeralda Marine Search LLP, Colin Emson, and Robert Fraser Marine Ltd are ludicrous as this project (or myself) was never affiliated or connected in any way with these organizations.
RECON Offshore is seeking interested contractors and individuals for employment, teaming, and partnering. Specifically seeking underwater/maritime archaeologists, submerged prehistoric archaeologists, GIS specialists, and maritime historians. RECON is a new worldwide provider of marine archaeology services focusing on submerged cultural resources management.
Some of may be interested in The news about the discovery of an 'important' old anchor has spread around the globe! https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-anchor-has-been-found-from-a-1641-british-shipwreck-wheres-the-100000-pounds-of-gold/ar-BBUBxKP?ocid=spartandhp&fbclid=IwAR0ouforc8isU2N7fS7xG4BSxw6pRZQMHZoLevtUNAU5vnsWgEpf7PhP3UE
There is an interesting discussion on how this fake news, & other fakes, came into being & developed from a 'joke', in this Big Anchor Project Facebook post.... https://www.facebook.com/groups/BIGanchors/2605866636096019/?comment_id=2611466068869409&reply_comment_id=2616780695004613¬if_id=1552397928341861¬if_t=group_comment_reply
I have lost a folder with a collection of bad stories about investors that lost money is treasure hunting projects. I had kept letters from lawyers, threats, press cuts, emails from disgruntled investors that came to me to see if i wanted to go public with their stories, etc. And at a certain point I threw it away with the tons of things I am always throwing away. I had the press cuts of the Sotheby's and Christie's crooks being arrested, notes on fake astrolabes circulating in the antiques markets, fake coins, fake old jewelry, etc., and I have no
I am looking for any information, or opinion, regarding the legitimacy - both from a legal and an ethical standpoint - for a Museum to buy silver bars from the Rooswijk wreck.
Buying or selling, the controversy is served. https://phys.org/news/2013-11-controversy-roman-ingots-dark-neutrinos.html
El mié., 23 ene. 2019 a las 12:06, Alexandre Monteiro (< [log in to unmask]>) escribió:
> Dear all, > > I am looking for any information, or opinion, regarding the legitimacy > - both from a legal and an ethical standpoint - for a Museum to buy > silver bars from the Rooswijk wreck. > > TIA > > -- > Alexandre Monteiro > Instituto de Arqueologia e Paleociências (UNL) > Av. Berna 26C > 1069-061 Lisboa > Portugal > [log in to unmask] > www.iap.fcsh.unl.pt >
Archeology should be about knowledge irrespective of source.
The bars are recovered and they are not going to be put back so the more public see them the better.
> On 23 Jan 2019, at 11:05, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Dear all, > > I am looking for any information, or opinion, regarding the legitimacy > - both from a legal and an ethical standpoint - for a Museum to buy > silver bars from the Rooswijk wreck. > > TIA > > -- > Alexandre Monteiro > Instituto de Arqueologia e Paleociências (UNL) > Av. Berna 26C
Ya, sure. It's like the artifacts looted from Syria by the DAESH: they have already been recovered, they are not going to be put back so the more public see them the better.. Who cares if the money you pay for them goes to fund more terrorism and more looting? After all, archeology should be about knowledge irrespective of source.
Everyone, please, can we discuss the merits of the question without reverting to the old knee-jerk reactions on both sides?
This article cited here about lead bars and neutrinos created an immediate conflict between my archaeological and engineering minds. To me, the most critical goal is documentation and preservation of accurate, detailed information, no matter whether we're talking about shipwreck excavation or astrophysics. Can those goals be accomplished by both archaeologists and other special interest groups, whatever they may be? I think it is possible, but difficult to achieve in the real world.
Archaeology is about knowledge, certainly, and of course it is also about preservation. If archaeological materials are collected in an unlawful or unethical way, that constitutes a loss of knowledge. If museums buy such material, they encourage continued such efforts by providing a financial incentive to continue such activities, which is why it is unethical for museums to purchase such material.
The wreck was found by a sports diver when sand covering it shifted. Preservation in situ is not an option on the Goodwin Sands.
The wreck was under threat from looters because of the treasure on board. Controlling access to sites us difficult as there is not the money or interest in stopping them being looted.
For a published discussion of the ethics ect. (sort of a literature review itself) see: Arnold, J. Barto III A tool for fighting treasure hunting. The Review of Archaeology, Special Issue 17(2) (for Fall 1996):40-43.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Chuck Meide Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 8:44 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Rooswijk silver bars
So the artefacts looted by DASH should never be bought back from private hands and put back in a museum then ?
> On 23 Jan 2019, at 14:10, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Ya, sure. It's like the artifacts looted from Syria by the DAESH: they > have already been recovered, they are not going to be put back so the > more public see them the better.. Who cares if the money you pay for > them goes to fund more terrorism and more looting? After all, > archeology should be about knowledge irrespective of source. >
2) did I understood you right, when you said that data exists but has never been published?
3) what do you mean by serial finds?
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 23/01/2019, às 15:57, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
> Hi chaps, > > To answer some questions: > > The wreck was found by a sports diver when sand covering it shifted. Preservation in situ is not an option on the Goodwin Sands. > > The wreck was under threat from looters because of the treasure on
Totally agree and support you with all you said. Not the only wreck that has been mishandled by HE and so-called UK government advisors !!! I am still waiting for the practical in-situ of shipwrecks manual. How to prevent your wreck from degrading and preserving all the data forever.
I thought about replying to some of these comments, but thought better of it. It is a regurgitation of the same old stuff from the same folks. Interestingly, there are similarities to the current federal government shutdown here in the USA.. neither side moves from its ethical standpoint and it the shipwrecks or federal employees that suffer... Que sera...
2) did I understood you right, when you said that data exists but has never been published?
3) what do you mean by serial finds?
Sent from my iPhone
> On 23 Jan 2019, at 19:32, Steve Roue <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Chuck > > I fully understand your reply. > > There are many questions to be thought about in my humble opinion. > > As we all know looting of shipwreck in many countries is illegal, and so it should be. > > The
Below Ishare some brief ethical, epistemological and technical thoughts that Iextensively developed a few years ago in an article on numismatic collectionsfrom shipwrecks. They are just some general ideas, given I do not know theparticularities of the case under examination.
Archaeologyis about recovering, analyzing and socializing human past histories, thuscontributing to understand both ourselves and otherness, from a cross-culturaland diachronic perspective (a longstanding aim of social science disciplinessuch as anthropology and sociology). To sell archaeological artifacts is tosell a piece of past itself. Archaeology is a post facto discipline which handles non-renewable objects, and acton them and on its
I think I perfectly understand the two points of view explained in this thread. Basically:
A.- A collection of identical items should remain together.
B.- A collection of identical items could be split and sold.
But it seems to me that these arguments come out just when we talk about precious items by then selves: gold or silver coins, silver ingots,... But what about repeated items as amphoraes? Some of you would say the same arguments as the two mentioned above. But nevertheless I have seen a third way to act in a situation of a lot of “repeated” and
> > Peter, regarding the extraction of the treasure: > It was not an ‘extraction of treasure’, it was just a dig. The treasure was pretty boring stuff, the other finds were far more interesting, as were the packaging they were shipped in.
> 1) who were the experienced archaeologists? Dr Alex Hildred led the excavation and there were three or four other MA qualified archos as far as i remember. The commercial divers had been used on previous projects so had experience excavating and lifting. I was survey manager. > > 2) did I understood you right, when you
Oh yes, that makes perfect sense.. rather than a private individual who is interested in history own a fragment of the past destroy it. Yep, a sensible solution that.
I would like to point out that many of the greatest art works in the world were donated by private individuals
So perhaps the excess Picasso’s or those unfinished pieces by any artist should be destroyed.
The problem now comes down to a quasi-religious belief so logic goes out the windw. Thinking that smashing up amphorae is ever a good idea can only come from religious-like fundamentalism. Same for sending tons of wood frags to landfill rather than they be sold to fund the project, as happened on a famous site 15 years ago.
Ok, I will bite the bait.. what’s the story behind the HFF funding?
> > The odd thing is that these same religious zealots dont have any problem breaking up and selling a cultural heritage collection to fund the Honor Frost Foundation. > > P > >> Peter Holt >> BEng CEng CMarEng MIMarEST MCIfA MHydSoc >> Director, 3H Consulting Ltd. >> Director, the SHIPS Project >> [log in to unmask] >> +44 (0)7813 018588 > > >> On 23 Jan 2019, at 21:50, ignacio salas <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> I think I perfectly understand the two points of view explained in this
Em qua, 23 de jan de 2019 às 20:51, ignacio salas <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > I think I perfectly understand the two points of view explained in this Archaeologists used to do > the *espurgo* in large amounts of amphorae, meaning that they break the > most of them in small pieces (to avoid comercial and illegal trade) and > preserve just a few in museums or warehouses as a representation of the > total. I
Not Alexandre, I have not evidence (photo or vtr). But I'll look for it. And as I have said, it happens a few years ago, maybe 10.
El jue., 24 ene. 2019 9:12, Alexandre Monteiro <[log in to unmask]> escribió:
> Ignacio, do you have evidence for this practice? > > And how many years ago are we talking here? > > I have never heard about this before. > > > Em qua, 23 de jan de 2019 às 20:51, ignacio salas > <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > > > I think I perfectly understand the two points of view explained in this
I cant remember the details but it seems that the money came from a purposely put together art collection that was split up and sold. Ironic, as this would never had been allowed if the same collection had come from a shipwreck.
Cheers, Pete
> Peter Holt > BEng CEng CMarEng MIMarEST MCIfA MHydSoc > Director, 3H Consulting Ltd. > Director, the SHIPS Project > [log in to unmask] > +44 (0)7813 018588
Alexandre, in the meanwhile, I send you the an article of the current arqueological legislation here in Andalucía (Spain), where the *espurgo* or *expurgo* is included (I know you understand spanish):
https://juntadeandalucia.es/boja/2003/134/6 DECRETO 168/2003, de 17 de junio, por el que se aprueba el Reglamento de Actividades Arqueológicas. Art. 38 5. Cuando a juicio de la dirección de la actividad arqueológica se estime conveniente la realización de un expurgo de bienes muebles recuperados en la misma, se presentará junto con el inventario una solicitud con los criterios de descarte y el protocolo para realizarlo y tratamiento final de los bienes
Pete, as this an archaeological collection of artifacts that was dismembered and sold?
Em qui, 24 de jan de 2019 às 09:45, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > I cant remember the details but it seems that the money came from a purposely put together art collection that was split up and sold. Ironic, as this would never had been allowed if the same collection had come from a shipwreck. > > Cheers, Pete > > > > Peter Holt > > BEng CEng CMarEng MIMarEST MCIfA MHydSoc > > Director, 3H Consulting Ltd. > > Director, the SHIPS Project
Correct me if I’m wrong Peter, but some years ago, there were pens made from the “extra wood” that came from the Mary Rose, that helped raise money. Also here in the USA, Ellis Island, undergoing renovation sold some of the old bricks from that iconic immigration site. Federal rules on the collection and removal from federal collections has undergone review and the rules for such de-accession have changed in the last few years. Private collections of numismatics are the basis of texts that are regularly referred to.
Alexandre, a publication from the cultural authority of the Regional Government in Andalucía (file:///D:/Descargas-Chrome/ 1147-Texto%20del%20art%C3%ADculo-1147-1-10-20130122.pdf). The article is wrote by an official of the Cádiz museum and makes an explicit mention to the *espurgo* and the *unconfortable dilemma* that causes to the museum workers and the diferences among what they say in public and what comment in their meetings (page 2, the second paraghaph on the right). I cant add the pdf.
The Mary Rose sold scrap timber frags encased in lucite in the 80s. They also sold pens and other items containing scrap timber when the new museum first opened, but don’t do that anymore as an archo-Nazi complained. I wanted to repurpose the scrap timber from the 2005 excavation to raise funds for the Mary Rose, instead it was destroyed. Go figure.
The Mary Rose also outsourced Margaret Rule to do treasure hunting for Arqueonautas WW in poor African countries like Cape Verde and Mozambique... it seems the Mary Rose was really a doomed ship.
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 24/01/2019, às 15:32, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
> The Mary Rose sold scrap timber frags encased in lucite in the 80s. They also sold pens and other items containing scrap timber when the new museum first opened, but don’t do that anymore as an archo-Nazi complained. I wanted to repurpose the scrap timber from the 2005 excavation to raise funds for
How canthis serious theme be properly discussed if ad hominem arguments and pasterrors are used to justify present positions? One can cite the "barberexample", other the "UNESCO policy", and other can even statethat doing archaeology is not the same than doing business with archaeologicalobjects. Well, I guess the persuasiveness of this kind of assertions is asgreat as its futility. Please, a problem of this kind needs finest and moreintelligent statements. It is crucial to assess variables of a complex issuefrom different standpoints (historical, ethical, legal, epistemological,technical, and methodological).
Is that true? I thought Margaret Rule did that independently and the Mary Rose Trust were not involved?
Have you been to the new Mary Rose museum? Are you aware of the influence on the profession from that project? And yet you call one of the greatest achievements in maritime archaeology a ‘doomed ship’?
Hi Pete, I agree with all your points as many real marine archaeologists do. I usually find that those marine archaeologists who have never left the confines of a university office and who teach the same old crap year in year out really don’t have a clue about working in the real archaeological world. I have for years been bad mouthed by many a Archo-Taliban member. I know that I do good archaeology. I ignore them as my contribution to the craft is far greater than theirs. You never win with them all as they will not listen or accept
Why does the rosy description of the Rooswijk excavation in 2005 not ring completely true? Perhaps because I was there. I never saw the “survey manager” on board.
For instance, the team recovered a very large concretion (containing muskets, sabres, plates, chests & silver ingots) in the knowledge that a storm was approaching. Only then did they bring on board a conservator (they had prevented me coming on board for quite a while to record the finds as they were coming up) & demand that it be broken up into pieces small enough to fit through the hatch into the
Seems now that we are degenerating into name calling and disparagement. It is a sad commentary on our times but polarization is the way of the world. Perhaps it has ever been thus, I had hoped that somewhere along the way, some middle ground would be found. Sadly this seems to not be the case. While still hopeful if this thread is any indication, the point and the hope of some form of collaboration is moot.
I almost forgot why I had let SUBARCH left to its own devices.. :)
Anyhow, let me get back to my initial point, rephrasing it a bit: I am looking for written material discussing regarding the looting of this ship and the sale of the artifacts. Peter has already stated that no papers or reports were produced. I am looking for stuff such as the piece written by Wendy van Duivenvoorde "Dutch Ministry of Finance Violates Agreement on Submerged Cultural Heritage.” INA Quarterly 33.1 (2006): 15–16.
Can the costs of the excavation be written off as a loss and the artifacts donated as opposed to sold? As someone with experience on the academic purist side of maritime archaeology (and a true believer, but a realist), has worked in public archaeology with severely limited funding, and now works in the private for-profit sector, I feel the solution to these conflicts would be a dialogue--one bereft of snide comments, criticism, and accusation, but one of true dialogue where we acknowledge the interests of all stakeholders. Find our common value of these artifacts (knowledge) and we can work
I only get the daily Digest, so have missed the discussion yesterday & the Digest hasn’t arrived yet today – there may well have been an outraged response from Pete to my contribution – he tends to burst a blood vessel whenever he is challenged or questioned (hence his dislike of authority).
On a related note I spotted that the Expedition Archaeologist for the Weddell Sea Expedition 2019 is Mensun Bound. This project has a rather prestigious set of stakeholders so it would be something worth getting involved in: https://weddellseaexpedition.org/the-expedition/stakeholders/
Were I a professional maritime archaeologist with a long track record of good works and publications, I would perhaps be a little irritated that such a prestigious job would go to someone with not quite such an unblemished record.
While all the effort and dialogue of the archaeological community is spent chasing away a small number of treasure hunters, all the other problems go ignored:
- The UK has just licensed dredging in a place where there are probably more shipwrecks per square kilometre than anywhere else in the world, the Goodwin Sands. The pre-excavation surveys of the Goodwins completely missed an entire WWII bomber aircraft on the seabed, it was only found because it was reported by a diver. Any pre-medieval shipwrecks have no chance of being detected so will be destroyed. The divers in the
Oh, Mensun.... as long as he is ice bound and not destroying shipwreck sites off Cape Verde and Mozambique, I am all good.
As for the real world, I guess people are suckers for a place in the spotlights... maybe that can be the reason your you pal David Mearns is joining the Sala search? for the spotlight and as a way for a cover survey off the Channel? Who knows?
I prefer to work with people have perform science ethically and do not twist their stories - like you did when you suggested that the HFF was sellling UCH collections in order to fund their scholarships.
My critics of Mearn's work in Oman are public and can be found here:
Em seg, 28 de jan de 2019 às 19:08, Peter Holt <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > From what I gather David was asked to be involved as he has a rather impressive record for finding things on the seabed. > > Perhaps you should take him with you when you
I prefer to work with people have perform science ethically and do not twist their stories - like you did when you suggested that the HFF was sellling UCH collections in order to fund their scholarships.
Thats not what I said. In fact the story is online at https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/opinion/honor-frost-foundation-4.htm
'However there is a rather more interesting story behind her. She was born in 1917, an only child whose parents died when she was young and she was brought up by her guardian, the family solicitor Wilfred Evill, who was also a keen and discerning art collector: as a solicitor he
Peter, I do not have a team in Oman, I have one in the UAE - check your facts.
Regarding the HFF, you know very well that a painting collection, with a known track record, being sold in auction is not the same thing as collecting US Navy belt buckles from an US Navy ship sunk in Cape Verde and then selling this UCH, taken from a very poor african country to rich first world collectors, via Margaret Rule and Mensun Bound:
As long as done by professional archaeologists following archeological guidelines... it will never happen, archaeologists do their job ethically, treasure hunters look for the shining stuff or whatever sells well.
John
Sent from my iPhone 8
On Jan 28, 2019, at 16:31, Steve Roue <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> “I prefer to work with people have perform science ethically” > > > “Ethically” who dictates what’s ethical or not ? > > A small band of unelected purist protecting their profession or the general public at large ? > > There is many millions of people on this planet who believe it
Thanks, Steve, you just made my point on why we need ethics in archaeology (and rule of Law, Human Rights Charters, watchdogs, checks and balances, etc. for the world at large).
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 28/01/2019, às 21:31, Steve Roue <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:
>> “I prefer to work with people have perform science ethically” > > > “Ethically” who dictates what’s ethical or not ? > > A small band of unelected purist protecting their profession or the general public at large ? > > There is many millions of people on this planet who believe it is perfectly
There are plenty of qualified and highly experienced archaeologist who work ethically, just to different ethics to those of the self protectionist who are more worried about themselves as opposed to the shipwreck or the public who fund them.
There are many poor people in every country (especially in Portugal and the USA) who would think it’s totally unethical for their government to pay people to go on a paid diving holiday while they struggle and others who would see it’s totally unethical to leave wrecks to rot away when people could recover its contents for the benefit of the
Rules are a requirement in life, and generally rules are developed by a formal process and signed off or voted on by our elected representatives.
If commercial archeology or selling coins from wrecks is a legal process then it then comes down to who think it is ethical or not, and that is where it becomes totally subjective depending on your or your groups view is.
Steve, there are several practical problems with that approach. Let me point our readers to just one.
I am an archivist researcher.
I go through Spanish, Portuguese, French, Dutch, Italian and North, Central and South American archives and find, transcribe and translate shipwreck records, dating down to the 15th century.
I have a very, very good idea on all ships lost between 1500 and today, for all the “Portuguese Atlantic”, which includes Madeira and the Azores Is. as well as some parts of the world oceans: Oman, the UAE, Mozambique, Cape Verde (of which government I am an official “wreckologist”
Gents This argument has degraded to the level that such arguments usually do. Before we reach the inevitable level of apes in cages throwing feces at spectators, perhaps we can move on to other more productive discussions such as achieving world peace and the elimination of hunger and poverty. I’m sure that with the level of erudition and civil discourse we can solve this in no time... Pax...
I fail to see why self funding projects on the 250 (4%) if ever found should stop or impact on the institutional archeological investigations on any of the other 5,750 (96%) if found.
If controlled properly with licensing and policing and a different model, funding as mitigation could be levied against self funding (part sold) projects to cross fund other state funded projects.
I missed this discussion during the US federal gov’t shutdown and have just now been catching up.
Circling back to the original Monteiro question about the legal and ethical issues surrounding museum acquisition of salvaged wreck materials:
The International Congress of Maritime Museums (ICMM) and the Council of American Maritime Museums (CAMM) have bylaws and policies for the acquisition and exhibition of commercially exploited wreck sites that are salvaged for private gain. Several other professional societies, associations and organizations also have published positions on the topic.
I hadn't been here for ages and I see that not much has changed. :O) This is such a simple subject and you are all beating around the bush. The only thing that proves good practice is a good publication. I don't care that much if the artifacts are sold or abandoned or stored in places never to be seen, or broken and thrown away. I care when anybody, archaeologist or treasure hunter, doesn't have any data to show after destroying an archaeological site.
Steve Roue, You are being much too practical and logical. If only more folks would use rational approaches such as the one you outlined. I once proposed that artifacts say coins disbursed from a collection could be registered as part of the certification process. This registration would be in the name of the “owner” of the object. To keep the value of the object, it would need to be re-registered at any subsequent sale. This would accomplish a number of things. 1. The objects whereabouts would be known. This would help defuse the angst of splitting up a collection. 2.
That is the only point! Agree with each letter __ Thanks Filipe Lp p
On 29/01/2019, 22:33, "Underwater Archaeology Discussion List on behalf of Filipe Castro" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of [log in to unmask]> wrote:
I hadn't been here for ages and I see that not much has changed. :O) This is such a simple subject and you are all beating around the bush. The only thing that proves good practice is a good publication. I don't care that much if the artifacts are sold or abandoned or stored in places never to be seen, or broken and thrown away. I care when
> On 29 Jan 2019, at 21:33, Filipe Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I hadn't been here for ages and I see that not much has changed. :O) This is such a simple subject and you are all beating around the bush. The only thing that proves good practice is a good publication. I don't care that much if the artifacts are sold or abandoned or stored in places never to be
Why isn't publication a line item in budgets? I can understand the delay from an interpretation perspective to a certain extent, but can we all not simply budget out the data publication?
While some may find this topic of conversation charged and debased to name calling, I believe that this post still stimulated some valuable discussion for me not only on this forum, but between other colleagues. I want to thank all the contributors, whether I agree with them or not, you all give me something to contemplate.
I Slovenia we have law and rules about Heritage (include underwater) researching and protection. If you want to get permission to research and protect any heritage the budget should be structured with: cost of: 1. field work and excavating with documentation, 2. Post-excavate processing with interpretation, 3. Conservation, 4. First report after 6 month ad finaly 5. Publishing in 2 year exceptionaly if site was heavily complex and big, the limit is 5 year.
Precisely. The cultural heritage is vital to our lives, like the environment. We need it to live meaningful lives, to try to understand who we are, and to try to look at ourselves against different backgrounds. Nobody should be allowed to touch anything without a plan detailing the publication schedule. And no primary data should be secret once a site is not in danger of being looted.
Precisely Filipe! Cooperation. As part of the agreements with NOAA and the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, Motivation Inc is beginning to publish - even if it is scanned documents, reports that have been written through the five decades of work conducted on both the Nuestra Senora de Atocha and the Santa Margarita, 1622. It will not happen overnight but the reports good or bad will get out there. They will be available on the website for Mel Fishers Treasures as is the online database of artifacts that is already there. Will it be perfect? Will it meet the rigorous
Yes, I, too, have been pleading for cooperation -- or at least communication -- between the groups for decades. All it's gotten me so far is inclusion on several blacklists and tagged on this list (years ago) as "an apologist for the treasure salvage community".
I used to beg the ACUA to take a more proactive stance, saying, "Hell, if the Israelis and Palestinians can be convinced to sit at a table to discuss issues, we should be ashamed for not reaching out. I have never, at any time, professed support for commercial salvage. On the other hand, I fully
Cooperation requires trust. And it is not easy to help a treasure hunter develop a cheap way to record the sites he is breaking, unless we first agree that he is breaking the site and I am helping him mitigate the destruction, not endorsing his work, methods and goals. :O) It is not an easy dialogue.
> On 4 Feb 2019, at 23:29, Filipe Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Cooperation requires trust. And it is not easy to help a treasure hunter develop a cheap way to record the sites he is breaking, unless we first agree that he is breaking the site and I am helping him mitigate the destruction, not endorsing his work, methods and goals. :O) It is not an easy dialogue. > > I am all for it, and that is why I am trying to publish (or put on academia) stuff that proposes a methodology to record a site. I
To the list, You know I think that the whole “treasure hunter” nomenclature is part of the antipathy that exists. Perhaps the older term salvor is actually more apt. The term treasure hunter is as most on this list understand - pejorative- at least among academic based archaeologists. Not so much among the general populace. Archaeologists often participate in what for lack of a better term would be considered salvage archaeology. The Portuguese vessel found by diamond miners on the African coast comes to mind, as well as a host of others. No world is perfect or excavation or report.
Em ter, 5 de fev de 2019 às 11:01, James Sinclair <[log in to unmask]> escreveu: > > To the list, > You know I think that the whole “treasure hunter” nomenclature is part of the antipathy that exists. Perhaps the older term salvor is actually more apt. > The term treasure hunter is as most on this list understand - pejorative- at least among academic based archaeologists. > Not so much among the general populace. > Archaeologists often participate in what for lack of a
